Вы что хотите спросите - называли ли так какие-то корабли тогда или были ли тогда именно то, что мы сейчас называем шлюп, баркентина и т.п.?

Олег написал:

Оригинальное сообщение #512316
Вы что хотите спросить - называли ли так какие-то корабли тогда или были ли тогда именно то, что мы сейчас называем шлюп, баркентина и т.п.?

Имею ввиду в эпоху второй половины XVII века... Корабли которые относились по парусному вооружению именно к этим классам, потому что очень часто в интернете натыкаюсь на то, что бриг появился с XVIII века... в других его сравнивают со шнявой, предшествиницей брига...Вот и хотелось уточнить о появлении этих судов.  Просто например тот же Корвет, вроде появляется в XVIII веке, но подобные суда возможно имелись и ранее, видно либо не назывались Корветами или их просто не было... в любом случаи про любую информацию об этих судах буду благодарен...

Вот например Бригантина(шхуна-бриг) - появилась раньше брига или позже и какое обычно несла вооружение?

Олег написал:

Оригинальное сообщение #512384
Например в 17 веке были корветы с двумя мачтами, и по парусному вооружению были бригами (с точностью до латинского грота).

Спасибо, не знал...похоже теперь ясна проблема определения названия судна.

Денис написал:

Оригинальное сообщение #512375
Имею ввиду в эпоху второй половины XVII века... Корабли которые относились по парусному вооружению именно к этим классам, потому что очень часто в интернете натыкаюсь на то, что бриг появился с XVIII века... в других его сравнивают со шнявой, предшествиницей брига...Вот и хотелось уточнить о появлении этих судов.  Просто например тот же Корвет, вроде появляется в XVIII веке, но подобные суда возможно имелись и ранее, видно либо не назывались Корветами или их просто не было... в любом случаи про любую информацию об этих судах буду благодарен...

Вот например Бригантина(шхуна-бриг) - появилась раньше брига или позже и какое обычно несла вооружение?

С середины 17 в. с появлением линейной тактики, в линию стали ставить корабли 1-5 рангов, имевшие хотя бы одну закрытую батарею; с 1665 г. англичане держали в линии только ЛК 1-4 рангов, голландцы – лишь с 1690 г. Голл. шнявы примерно соответствовали 6 рангу англ. и (позже) – шлюпам, некоторые были 3-мачтовые (как «Мункер» Петра 1). Из малых судов были кечи, с пушками и без них, и быстроходные бригантины, часто со смешанным вооружением. Позже, в 18 в. бриги сменили 2-мачт. шнявы. 
Завтра я дам несколько точных определений из справочника.

Денис написал:

Оригинальное сообщение #512399
Интересно, а что это за бриг или шнява с 3 мачтами? а в чем отличия их от "brig of war" или "sloop of war" Наполеоновских войн?

Шнява. С 3 мачтами. Голл. "Схидам" 18-22п участвовала во всех сражениях 1665-73 гг. Наша - "Мункер".
Of war - енный в отличие от торгового.

Денис написал:

Оригинальное сообщение #512448
Ждем с нетерпением:)

Полезный словарик в R. Winfield, British Warships in the Age of Sal, 1603-1714, London, 2009
Glossary and Abbreviations

The following alphabetical list of lesser-known nautical and other specialised terminology incorporates an explanation of abbreviations and definitions used in this book.

Adm    Admiral, RN.  There were actually three ranks, in descending order these being Admiral, Vice-Admiral and Rear-Admiral.  Each rank was sub-divided into three grades, in descending order these being designated “of the Red”, “of the White” and “of the Blue”; however, I have made no attempt to distinguish the separate grades in this book.  There was additionally a higher rank of Admiral of the Fleet (not sub-divided); those who reached this rank in our period are listed in this Introduction.
AO    Admiralty (Board) Order (usually with date of issue).
Bark    Technically, the term applied to a small three-masted vessel without a mizzen topsail, but in general it was applied by mariners at the start of the 17th century to most smaller three-masted ships.
Base    A breech-loading, swivel-mounted gun for anti-personnel fire, with a shot of c.½ pound weight..
Brig    A small two-masted sailing vessel (the term probably began as a shortened form of ‘brigantine’).
Brigantine   A small two-masted vessel.  By the end of the 18th century, they were square-rigged on both masts and the term were in practice interchangeable with ‘brig’; from the 1820s, new types of brigantine evolved which were fore-and-aft rigged on the mizen while retaining square rig on the fore mast.
Broadside   The combined weight of projectiles that can be fired from one or other of the lateral sides of a warship (i.e. half the firepower of the combined weight of metal that a ship could fire, assuming that no gun could bear on both sides of the ship.
Buss   Primarily a fishing vessel, it resembled the dogger (qv) but additionally had a foremast.
Cannon-of-seven    A muzzle-loading, truck-mounted gun projecting a shot of 42 pounds weight.
Cannon perrier    A muzzle-loading, truck-mounted gun projecting a stone shot of 24 pounds weight.
Capt    Captain, RN.  Here used only for commanding officers ‘made post’, i.e. having achieved the substantive rank of Captain (note that for much of the 17th century there was no distinction between rated and unrated craft; all were commanded by Captains).  Lieutenants who held command of unrated vessels were conventionally called ‘Captain’ aboard their ship, but did not hold the substantive rank.
Chase (gun)  In gunnery terms, a gun mounted to fire forwards or from the stern, and not usually designed to bear on the lateral side of a ship.
Cmdr    Commander (or strictly speaking “Master and Commander”), RN.  This rank did not become substantive until 1794, and technically all holders prior to that date remained Lieutenants; but to avoid confusion all such Lieutenants before 1794 are shown as they would have been if the appropriate rank had been in existence earlier.
Culverin    A muzzle-loading, truck-mounted gun originally projecting a shot of 17½ pounds, later of 18 pounds weight.
Dates    All dates are given in UK format, i.e. day.month.year.
    Abbreviations preceding these dates are:
Ord:    date ordered (to be built) by the Admiralty – note that, for vessels built by a commercial shipbuilder, this is not the same as the date on which a contract was signed.
K:    date the keel was laid down – note that work might in some cases have already taken place off the slipway.
L:    date of launch (where known, this is also quoted for ships purchased or otherwise acquired after being built, or while building was taking place) or – for those few vessels built in a dry dock – of undocking.
C:    date of completion of the fitting-out process which followed a vessel’s launch – note that for vessels built by contract, this almost always took place in a Royal Dockyard.
For captured vessels, a slightly different procedure is followed; while the launch date is recorded as above the overall period of construction (where known) is shown in the format date keel laid – date of completion.
Decks    The decks on which guns were mounted are listed with the following abbreviations:
    Fc    Forecastle (deck).
LD    Lower Deck. Note this was the lowest deck to mount guns in a wooden warship; other decks below this (without gunports) were the orlop deck and the hold itself, but they did not bear guns.  In the ‘true’ frigate, the LD itself bore no guns.
MD    Middle Deck.  On a three-decker, the intervening gun-bearing deck between the lower deck and the upper deck, carrying the second full-length tier of carriage guns.
QD    Quarter Deck (usually just quarterdeck).  The partial deck extending forward from the stern, usually to about the mainmast (i.e. about halfway along the ship’s length), a deck above the upper deck.
RH    Roundhouse (deck) or poop (deck).
UD    Upper Deck.  The highest continuous deck of a vessel, excluding the superstructure or ‘upper works’.
Demi-cannon    A muzzle-loading, truck-mounted gun originally projecting a shot of 33½ pounds, later of 32 pounds weight.
Demi-culverin    A muzzle-loading, truck-mounted gun originally projecting a shot of 9½ pounds, later of 9 pounds weight.
Dimensions   Throughout the book, dimensions quoted are length x breadth x depth in hold; all measurements are in Imperial feet (ft) and inches (in).  Two lengths are usually given, separated by a comma; the first is length on the gundeck (the lower deck in larger vessels); the second is the length of the keel for tonnage (a somewhat artificial figure which is not the same as the actual length of the keel itself).  The breadth given is that used for tonnage, actually the breadth at the broadest part of the vessel, outside the planking but inside the wales.  Where known, each vessel’s draught is also given in the form: forwards / aft.
Dogger   Primarily a fishing vessel derived from the fluyt (of flyboat) which it closely resembled.  It was rigged with a single square sail on the main-mast and either a square or lateen sail on the mizzen mast.
Dyd    (Royal) Dockyard.  The main bases of the British Navy, at Deptford and Woolwich on the Upper Thames, Chatham and Sheerness on the River Medway, and Portsmouth and Plymouth on the south (Channel) coast of England.  Milford on the north side of Milford Haven (Pembrokeshire) was not added until after our period, to be supplanted in 1815 by Pater (Pembroke Dock) on the south side of the Haven.  There were also overseas Dockyards at Kinsale in Ireland and at a number of other locations.
Falcon    A small muzzle-loading, truck-mounted gun projecting a shot of 2½ pounds weight
Falconet    A small muzzle-loading, truck-mounted gun projecting a shot of 1¼ pounds weight
Flyboat   Dutch trading vessel (the Dutch word was fluyt, from which the English name derived) of unusual hull design, having a bulbous, rounded stern with a narrow taffrail.  The French term was flûte.
Fowler    A breech-loading, swivel-mounted gun for anti-personnel fire, with a shot of c.6 pounds weight.
Frigate  The original meaning was of any reasonably fine-lined (and hence fast-sailing) vessel.  The seventeenth century frigate developed from the two-masted Dunkirk privateers, but once adopted was greatly expanded and by the later years of that century even Third Rate warships were “frigate-built”.  The term in the early sixteenth century encompassed most Rated warships below the line of battle, but from mid-century onwards became to mean a specific type of warship carrying its main battery on a single gun deck (confusingly called the Upper Deck, with the ‘gun-deck’ being an unarmed deck without gunports lying below this upper deck).  In the British Navy, the term was officially restricted to ‘single-decked’ ships with 28 or more carriage guns, but in common (sea) use was applied to most large cruisers.
Galliot.   A small sailing vessel with a tall gaff-rigged main-mast, also carrying a square topsail; it also had a short lateen-rigged mizzen mast.  Used primarily for coastal and inshore cargo work by the Royal Navy.
Guns    The established number of guns carried on each deck, with the rating (weight of projectile) of each.  Unless specified as carronades (usually mounted on slides), these were long (-barreled) guns mounted on trucks.  Prior to the 1716 Guns Establishment, the number is shown separately for the wartime establishment (when on service in Home waters) and peacetime establishment (including wartime service on overseas stations), the two figures being separated by an oblique stroke.
Hoy   Like the galliot, a small sailing vessel with a tall gaff-rigged main-mast, also carrying a square topsail; unlike the galliot, it had no mizzen mast.
“in the room of” a 17th/18th century expression which seems to fox many people; quite simply, it means “in place of” or, more generally “as a replacement for”.
Ketch  In the first half of the eighteenth century, a number of unrated vessels, including many of the sloops and bombs, carried this form of two-masted rig, carrying square sails on both a main and a mizen mast as well as having fore-and-aft-rigged sails.  This type of rig went out of use in the second half of the eighteenth century; when two-masted sloops of war re-appeared, most would be rigged as brigs (i.e with a fore and a main mast, instead of a main and a mizen mast).
Horseboat   A harbour craft, primarily used at Chatham, for which the motive power was literally horses whose strength was used to drive (side) paddle wheels.
Lazarette  (or lazaretto).   A hulk adapted to be used as a floating hospital or isolation ward, often used as accommodation for men in quarantine.
Lieut    Lieutenant, RN.
Men    The established complement of officers and ratings of the ship; the number actually carried at any one time naturally varied according to availability and losses.
Minion    A small muzzle-loading, truck-mounted gun projecting a shot of 4 pounds weight
Mizen  The aftermost mast of a three-masted vessel, or of a two-masted ketch (note that a brig has no mizen); often wrongly spelt “mizzen”.
Mld.    Moulded breadth.
M/Shipwright   The Master Shipwright was the senior naval constructor at each Royal Dockyard, and usually also at subsidiary naval dockyards.  Admiralty records usually record as ‘builder’ only the Master Shipwright who was in post at that dockyard when the ship was launched and delivered to the Navy; in this book, all Master Shipwrights who were in post during the period of construction of the ship are attributed.
NBW    Navy Board Warrant (usually with date of issue).
NMM    National Maritime Museum, Greenwich.
Pink    In naval use, a form of two-masted vessel with a hull form similar to a fluyt, but having a narrow stern similar to the (three-masted) Mediterranean xebecs.  It carried a rig similar to a ketch.
Pinnace    The term had two distinct meanings. Amiong small boats, it described a ship’s boat rowed usually with 8 oars. Among larger raft, there were generally small two-masted vessels, rigged like a schooner but also able to be rowed with oars.
Port-piece    A breech-loading, wrought-iron gun for anti-personnel fire (obsolete by 1603).
Powder hulk   A vessel for storing and issuing gunpowder.  There were usually under the operational control of the Ordnance Dept. (separate from both Navy and Army) and were for safety stationed well away from the dockyard to which they were attached.
PRO    Public Records Office, Kew.
Razée  A vessel cut down by the removal of an entire deck, or sometimes just its quarterdeck and forecastle, to produce a lighter, usually more seaworthy vessel; most often used to give an extended life to a worn-out large warship.
Receiving ship  A stationary vessel used as a floating accommodation ship for men between commissioned or before they were attached to a specific vessel (in particular, newly pressed men who needed to be isolated from the shore to forestall attempts at desertion.
Saker    A muzzle-loading, truck-mounted gun projecting a shot of 5¼ pounds weight.  Under the 1677 Guns Establishment the terminology was altered so that 6-pounder guns and even 8-pounder guns were described as ‘sakers’, while the normal 5¼-pounder guns were described as ‘light sakers’, but the terminology subsequently reverted to the previous situation, and to avoid any confusion in this book I have only used the term ‘saker’ for the 5¼-pounder weapons.
Servants  Until 1794, a Captain was allowed four servants for every 100 men aboard his ship, so this could be as many as 8 servants for the Captain of a Sixth Rate, while the Captain of a First Rate might have 32 servants.  Lieutenants, Masters, Surgeons, and Pursers were allowed one servant each, while Carpenters, Boatswains, and Gunners got two.  Lieutenants in command of vessels were allowed two servants, while “Masters and Commanders" had three (their base pay was the same as a Lieutenant, regardless of the vessel's rating).
Sheer hulk   A vessel equipped with a pair of ‘sheer legs’ (two large spars angled together to form an ‘A’ frame) to hoist masts in and out of vessels.
Ship    In the more restricted usage of the sailing era, a three-masted sailing vessel, square-rigged on the fore and main masts, but often fore-and-aft rigged on the mizzen mast, and with square topsails on all three masts.
Sloop  In naval terms, the 17th century sloop was generally a two-masted vessel square-rigged on the foremast and with a gaff rig on the main mast, also provided with sweep ports for rowing.
Smack   A small sailing vessel with a single mast, carrying a gaff sail.
Snow  A type of ‘two-and-a-half’-masted vessel, rigged similar to a brig (which largely replaced it in the second half of the seventeenth century), but with a small trysail-mast immediately aft of the main mast.
Surveyors (of the Navy)   The chief designers of warships for the British Navy, and members of the Navy Board.  The holders of this post during the 1714-1792 period are listed in the Introduction.
Tons    Throughout the period covered by this book, a naval vessel’s tonnage was the Builder’s Measurement (‘bm’ throughout the book), a formula used in calculating the carrying capacity of the hull.  However, the way in which this was calculated changed during the Age of Sail.  Until 1582 measurement was rather unscientific, and was chiefly a matter of opinion. In 1582 a rule was devised, attributed to the leading Master Shipwright Matthew Baker, for calculating the burthen. This Baker’s Rule multiplied together the three principal dimensions – the keel length (leaving out the false post – a piece of timber bolted to the after edge of the main stern post), the beam or breadth (within the planking), the depth of the hold (measured from the breadth to the lower edge of the keel) - all measured in feet - and divided the product by a factor of 100.  This system was slightly amended (on 26 May 1628) to measure these dimensions slightly differently, but under the Commonwealth a new rule was introduced under which the tonnage was calculated using the formula (k x b x ½b  94), where ‘k’ and ‘b’ are respectively the keel length and the breadth of the ship outside the planking (but inside the wales); this explains why fractions of a ton are quoted in ninety-fourths.
Yacht   A vessel intended primarily for pleasure.  There were two main types in naval use – the Royal yacht intended for the enjoyment of the monarch or his family, and the dockyard yacht intended for the business purposes of the dockyard Commissioner or his officials.  The term did not signify any particular form of rig.

Есть у кого либо чертеж корабля Seditieux 1679, в сети искал, мне не повезло....вооружение (26 пушек 18x8; 8 x 4)?

Отредактированно Денис (16.04.2012 11:38:53)