Эд написал:

#957392
5-74п-срезаны в 50-пуш. ФР

Не подскажите их вооружение? Они вообще хоть какого-нибудь успеха добились?

Перун написал:

#958275
Да и видимые мною модели фрегатов имели артиллерию на шкафуте,на шканцах и баке.

На рубеже веков было несколько "двухполосных" фрегатов, у которых верхняя палуба вся была занята пушками, к середине 19 таких кораблей было довольно много, например к ним относились все русские 60 пушечные фрегаты, включая "Палладу". Возможно вы видели модели именно таких фрегатов.

Перун написал:

#958305
Но тогда почему именно на шкафуте они мешали?

Традиционное в шкафуте был вырез в врехней палубе, в котором размещались баркасы и для вентиляции верхнего дека. Естественно, пушки там поставить было некуда. Потом стали делать непрерывную верхнюю палубу. У этого решения были как преимущества, так и недостатки, особенно эпичен был "срач" на эту тему между Ушаковым и Катасоновым. В эпоху, когда отстуствовала точная терия кораблестроения, могли быть удачными корабли как с тем, так и с иным решением, видимо откуда-то оттуда идет это утверждение про связь скорости с наличием пушек на шкафуте.

Олег написал:

#958240
Не подскажите их вооружение? Они вообще хоть какого-нибудь успеха добились?

28-36; 2-18+18-12 (или 20-12); 2-6-36 гаубиц, экипаж 540-565.
Позже вооружение уменьшено до 28-36; 14-12 (Данные Джеймса неверные).
Эксперимент оказался неудачным, достижений в корсарской войне не было.
2 из них в бою 1795 г. у о. Груа были в линии баталии с ЛК.

In his book, "The Pursuit of Victory", Roger Knight devotes some attention to all the RN ships that figured in the career of Nelson, from start to finish. In doing so, Knight does us the great service of providing sailing report data on a range of ships from sloops to 1st rates. Previous to this, the only sailing reports I had ever viewed were those included by Gardiner, but they addressed only frigate classes. I was impressed by the narrow range of speeds that seemed to prevail across the above-mentioned range of classes. Here are some examples from Knight's book -

8 Carcasse - 10 knots before the wind.
24 Dolphin - 8.5 knots before the wind.
28 Albemarle - 10-11 knots on the quarter reach.
28 Boreas - 11-12 knots on the quarter reach.
32 Lowestoffe - 10-11 knots on the quarter reach.
38 Medusa - 11 knots "in light winds with all sails set".
38 Minerve - 9-10 knots on the quarter reach.
64 Raisonable - 11 knots "in a stiff gale".
64 Agamemnon - 10 knots before the wind.
74 Elephant - 11 knots before the wind.
74 Captain - 12 knots on the quarter reach.
74 Theseus - 10-11 knots on the quarter reach.
74 Vanguard - 11 knots running before the wind. (see below)
74 Vanguard - 8-9 knots running before the wind.
80 Foudroyant - 11 knots on the quarter reach.
100 Victory - 10-11 knots on the quarter reach.
112 San Josef - 9-10-11 knots on the quarter reach.

This is quite interesting. A quick glance at Gardiner's book shows that it was not unusual for frigates to do 12-13 knots "sailing large" with the record for frigates being 14.4 knots. This seems a bit faster than the frigate speeds Byron lists for ships "on the quarter reach". Somebody might take the time to explain to me the meaning of these two terms. I do have the vague impression that a ship reaches its highest speed -usually- when it is sailing at right angles to the wind, and not "before the wind" as one might suspect, and that this is what is meant by "sailing large". My ignorance is profound in this area and the two terms may refer to the same condition of sailing. I gladly invite correction!

As to the reasons for the narrow range of speeds given for ships with such a wide range of sizes, I do know that speed was and is related first and foremost to the length-beam ratio. Even a very large first rate might be expected to have performance in calm conditions comparable to a 20 gun sloop if both had identical "fineness ratios". I believe that larger ships gained an edge in higher seas and that smaller square rigged ships gained an edge as they sailed closer to the wind. Fore-and-aft rigged small craft had every advantage in sailing against the wind, but were quickly overtaken by square rigged ships in heavy weather.

Other factors affecting speed were conditions of fouling and loading, and the underwater lines of a ship. Steep entry underwater and fineness fore-and-aft increased speed at the expense of stability and weatherliness. Frank Fox makes the point that 17th Century SOLs had much sharper lines fore-and-aft than later ships would have in the interests of attaining higher speeds. These sharp lines were abandoned in the 18th Century because weatherliness on lee shores was needed for blockade work to a degree unimagined prior to 1700 and weatherliness mandated bluff lines forward. In the 1830s, William Symonds gained notoriety and fame by building extremely fast ships by once again giving them very steep entry underwater. Unfortunately, his ships. although fast, rolled very badly and were terrible gun platforms.

Возможно и байка про киль,но всё равно корабль приложившийся днищем об банку и просидевший на ней некоторое время,по-любому обдерёт медную обшивку.А в  виде бонуса-потеря пары-тройки узлов.И всё равно Эндимион нагнал его с трудом,а остальные отстали,как не крути от повреждённого "Президента".Так,что прочитав статистику выложенную Эдом по скоростям британских кораблей,подумал,а не накидывают ли англичане(на бумаге),своим кораблям-трояк узелков,мелочь,а приятно.
Тем более,что в эскадренном месилове-стенка на стенку,не особо порысачишь на обрывках парусов.
К стати,уважаемая публика-нет ли у кого данных по вооружению П.В. Л.К. " Наполеон" 1850г.выпуска?
Заранее благодарен.

Перун написал:

#958533
" Наполеон" 1850г.выпуска?

NAPOLEON class fast screw ships of the line (3rd class)

Displacement:     5120t
Dimensions:    233ft 8in wl, 234ft 5in deck x 53ft 3in mld, 55ft 1in ext x 25ft 9in mean, 27ft 1in max. Ville de Nantes: 235ft 5in wl, 238ft 0in deck. Ville de Lyon: 234ft 2in wl, 236ft 3in deck x 54ft 11in.
Same, meters:    71.23, 71.46 x 16.22, 16.80 x 7.86, 8.26m. Ville de Nantes: 71.76, 72.55m. Ville de Lyon: 71.37, 72.00 x 16.75m
Machinery:    Napoléon: 960nhp (Indret). 2 cylinders, geared, 12.14kts sustained on trials. Replaced in 1861 by 900nhp engines (Mazeline), direct, 1798ihp, 12.94kts. Algésiras: 900nhp (Toulon). 2 cylinders, direct, return connecting rod, 2057ihp, 13.014kts sustained on trials. Ville de Nantes: 900nhp (Cherbourg). Direct. Intrépide: 900nhp (Indret). Trunk, trials 2204ihp = 12.24kts. Others: 900nhp (Indret). 4 cylinders, direct
Hull material:    Wood
Armament:    (Napoléon, 1852) GD 32-30p No.1, 4-22cm No.1 shell; UD 26-30p No.2, 4-22cm No.2 shell; SD 14-16cm shell, possibly also 10 carronades. (Algésiras, Arcole, Redoutable, Impérial, 1856-61) GD 18-36p, 16-22cm No.1 shell; UD 34-30p No.2; SD 20-16cm shell or (Arcole and Redoutable) 20-30p No.4, 2-16cm rifles. (Ville de Bordeaux, Ville de Lyon, 1861-2) GD 34-16cm M1858 MLR; UD 34-30p No.2; SD 20-16cm shell (12-30p No.3 in V. de Lyon), 2-16cm M1858 MLR. (Napoléon, by 1862) GD 36-16cm rifles; UD 34-30p No.2; SD 20-16cm shell. (Ville de Nantes, 1863) GD 24-30p No.1, 10-16cm rifles; UD 24-30p No.2, 10-22cm No.2 shell; SD 4-16cm rifles, 6-16cm shell.
Complement:    913

Name              Builder        Laid down    Launched     Commiss.     Fate         
NAPOLEON    Toulon    7.1.48    16.5.50    1.5.52    Stk. 6.11.76
ALGESIRAS    Toulon    4.53    4.10.55    10.4.56    Stk. 20.11.01
ARCOLE    Cherbourg    4.3.53    20.3.55    8.5.56    Stk. 11.4.70
REDOUTABLE    Rochefort    11.4.53    25.10.55    24.11.56    Stk. 15.11.69
IMPERIAL    Brest    19.8.53    15.9.56    20.2.58    Stk. 15.11.69
INTREPIDE    Rochefort    2.9.53    17.9.64    8.5.65    Stk. 6.12.89
VILLE DE NANTES    Cherbourg    20.6.54    7.8.58    25.10.60    Stk. 28.11.72
VILLE DE BORDEAUX    Lorient    26.6.54    21.5.60    5.11.60    Stk. 14.1.79
VILLE DE LYON    Brest    30.3.55    26.2.61    4.11.61    Stk. 28.6.83

Class. On 9.12.46 the minister asked the ports to develop plans for installing screw machinery in several ships of the line and frigates then on the ways. Dupuy de Lôme felt that such conversions were a good way of using existing hulls, but also felt that a much more radical advance could be made if a new steam battleship were designed from scratch. While his colleagues prepared plans for sailing ships with auxiliary steam power, he designed a true steamer which also had all the combat strength of 90-gun sailing ships of the line. The only thing he sacrificed was endurance--because the ship would have to replenish its coal supply fairly often, he reduced its supply of provisions and water to 2 months from the 4-6 months carried by sailing ships. The converted ships underwent a similar reduction, which effectively limited the new ships to operations in European waters. Dupuy de Lôme's plans were approved on 11.1.48 and construction of one ship was ordered.

Napoléon was launched as 24 Février but was renamed on 17.5.50. Her trials were regarded as a sensational success--on 30.8.52 during a run from Toulon to Ajaccio she averaged 12.14 knots over a distance of 119 miles and reached 13 knots for short periods. Her armament was redistributed several times in the 1850s as the navy experimented with its new standard type of battleship. Her engines were highly successful on trials, but their gearing (as in most early geared screw machinery) created maintenance problems and new direct-drive engines were ultimately fitted. She was the only French ship of the line with two funnels.

Napoléon's first two sisters, Algésiras and Arcole, replaced four 550nhp frigates in the building program in 5.52 and were ordered in 11.52. The later ships were ordered as rapidly as possible between 2.53 and 4.54. All but Napoléon and Algésiras had hoisting screws. The class received the rig of a sail 80-gun ship (Jupiter, etc.), and the sail area of Napoléon was 3411 sq.yd. The height of the battery above the water was 6ft 4in. The ships were reclassified as 2nd class ships of the line in 1855 because of their length and speed. In 1856 Dupuy de Lôme designed a follow-on 90-gun ship which was practically identical to the Napoléon class except for a displacement of 5720t, a length of 251ft 10in wl (76.76m), and a slightly reduced draft. Its proposed armament was GD 18-36p No.1, 18-22cm No.1 shell; MD 36-36p No.1 "lightened"; SD 22-36p No.3, 2-16cm rifles. The advent of the ironclad made this design obsolete before any ships were ordered.

Ville de Bordeaux was commissioned unusually early in the fitting-out process, and her machinery was not fully installed until 9.61. (Normally, French steamers began to go into commission no more than five months before their machinery installation was complete.) Intrépide was completed belatedly as a transport. Her original engines were ordered from Rochefort in 1853. Designed by Sabattier, they had 4 cylinders and were on Penn's system (presumably trunk engines). They were later split for use in two frigates (Circé and Flore) and replaced by a new set of 900nhp trunk engines from Indret. Algésiras became a transport in 1869 (when she gained an additional deck and a poop) and became torpedo school ship at Toulon in 1888.

Disposals. Napoléon was BU 1886 at Brest. Algésiras became an accomodation ship for torpedo apprentices and burned accidentally 25.11.06. Arcole was BU 1871-72 at Cherbourg and Redoutable was BU 1871 at Brest. Impérial became a barracks hulk at Toulon, was renamed Jupiter 19.9.70, and was BU 1897. Intrépide relieved the former Valmy as the naval school hulk at Brest and assumed the name Borda in 1890. Retired in 1912, she was BU c1914. Ville de Nantes was BU 1887 at Cherbourg. In 1.80 Ville de Bordeaux relieved Bretagne as the school hulk for novices and apprentice seamen at Brest and assumed the name Bretagne. She was BU 1894. Ville de Lyon was BU 1885 at Brest.

Перун написал:

#958565
а где англичане брали такую уйму дубовых брёвен для постройки кораблей?

http://george-rooke.livejournal.com/366440.html

Перун написал:

#958565
где англичане брали такую уйму дубовых брёвен для постройки кораблей?

Англичане искали лес по всему миру. Главным источником была Балтика, конкретно Рига (дуб). Также и голландцы. Поэтому они неуклонно добивались равновесия на Балтике, чтобы ни Дания, ни Швеция, ни Россия не имели там преимущества. Мачтовый лес – из Сев. Америки. Позже тик – из Индии. Франция покупала лес в Германии и Италии. Испания – феррольский дуб и красное дерево в Америке.

Олег написал:

#958602
А не наоборот, вроде традиционно прибалтийская сосна шла на рагоут, канадская массово пошла после 1807.  А откуда в Риге дуб - белорусский?

Лучший мачтовый лес - из Сев. Америки, но и дуб оттуда же; Рига и Данциг - с 17 в. главные экспортные порты дуба Курляндии, Австрийской империи, Польши. Позже - африканский лес (тик, красное дерево).

Олег написал:

#958732
А разве тик не из Индии?

В Индии само собой, там большие масштабы, в Бомбее даже верфи были. Но тик был (и есть) и в Африке. Вместе с красным деревом. Моя дочка выложила пол в квартире из красного дерева из Индонезии.
ВМФ Англии в 1790-1800-е гг. требовалось ежегодно 50 тыс. лоудов (=1,12 куб. м) древесины, в основном, дуба.

А в каких частях судна обычно использовался тик?